IPODS?

[Cauldron_Born]

While I am at it,let's take this down to an underground level. I recently reissued my first album,BORN OF THE CAULDRON on Stormspell Records. Stormspell has integrity. They are a small label but they aren't in it to rip anyone off.Figuratively speaking, let's say that Stormspell or a label like Stormspell which we will call Label X decided to loan me 5000-10,000 dollars to record a new Cauldron Born album. That label is going to have to at least make that loan back. To make the money back they have to actually sell the CDs. Everyone downloading it for free and occasionally patting Label X and myself on the back on a few message forums and websites isn't going to pay Label X back. If label X doesn't make its money back on the new album there isn't going to be a loan a second time to record yet another album. See where I am going with this? I don't mean to offend anyone, I am just trying to show you how things look from where I am standing.

[holydio1]

hey, that was NOT my attitude. But that's the one from most people out there nowadays. The only thing I said (and here we disagree) - I can understand that. There are lots of pros and contras to that theme but to say - the music consumer is the one who is guilty, is as false as to say the music industry is it. It might be a conglomerate of lots of reasons, but not to accept this challenge - as the music industry behave - is totally un-understandable.

[Prof]

hey, that was NOT my attitude. But that's the one from most people out there nowadays. The only thing I said (and here we disagree) - I can understand that. There are lots of pros and contras to that theme but to say - the music consumer is the one who is guilty, is as false as to say the music industry is it. It might be a conglomerate of lots of reasons, but not to accept this challenge - as the music industry behave - is totally un-understandable.

I know that this is not your attitude.
But I fail to see this reasoning even from the so-called average consumer. If a real music lover is in a slump money-wise (and we all have had that annoying experience), he is not enjoying downloading things. He's looking forward to having extra cash again soon, so he can buy actual CDs, vinyl or whatever.

The average consumer does not care about who makes money from what, he buys music the way he buys a cup of coffee, passion does not enter into it. Now that the possibilities are here to get stuff for free without governments and educators doing anything about it, he will simply steal from the artists. Where's the ethic in that?

With illegal downloading, you are not punishing the industry for its sins (and God knows they are many). You are first and foremost harming the artist.
As for the challenge that the music industry still is not meeting, I agree. That's blatant stupidity, if not the last nail into the industry's coffin. But then again, would you expect long-term visions from an industry that in its essence is the embodiment of short-term gain?

By the way: Howie Bentley, we bid you welcome!

[holydio1]

thanks for the answer, appreciated. Maybe we can drink a beer at KIT and talk about the cds we BOUGHT there....

PS Mr. Bentley - your music is awesome!

[Michael@SacredMetal]

And, Howie, while you're here:
Get out your doom-project soon....

[NegatroN]

I don't think that iPods (or MP3 in any form) will really change anything. People that really appreciate music will still buy it and will still buy the whole CD, not only a single. And people who don't appreciate it don't buy CDs anyway - and also didn't do that in the times before MP3.

[Prof]

I don't think that iPods (or MP3 in any form) will really change anything. People that really appreciate music will still buy it and will still buy the whole CD, not only a single. And people who don't appreciate it don't buy CDs anyway - and also didn't do that in the times before MP3.

Sorry, but that is complete and utter bollocks. Over the past two years or so I have had to witness, up close, how long-standing independent record stores here in The Netherlands are struggling to stay afloat. As we speak, some of the best have already closed their doors - this is in no small part due to more and more people downloading their music. That also goes for people who used to buy more than one album each week - a child can do the math and see the implications of this downward spiral.

The casual buyer who goes into town for a few hours and picks up a CD or two along the way, is rapidly becoming extinct. This segment of the clientele is important to inner city record stores. Rent and personnel costs are high, profit margins are small; much needed revenues come from selling considerable quantities of big name releases (whether you like it or not).

I was in two record stores this afternoon and once again it struck me that most of the clientele present in both of them was over 30 (well over 30 I might add, myself not excepted). The demographics of the current record-buying public are not hard to work out.

[Dustin]

I actually own an 80gb iPod, but I bought it for more of a convenience of having my CD library at my finger tips. I did NOT buy it to REPLACE my CD's, as I love having a physical, tangible copy with artwork, and liner notes. It is a very sentimental thing, much like it is for those that enjoy owning vinyl.

Personally, I fought the idea for years, but when my wife bought one and showed me how easily she could access the music she wanted and fit it into her pocket, I fell in love with it. I was tired of carrying around 24-48 CD's in with me everywhere I went, and having to conceal them in my car or in my desk. I also hated the fact that every time I slid my CD's in and out of the holders jackets, they were getting scuffed. Now, all the CD's I buy (yes, I still buy CD's!) are in mint condition, and I OWN the PHYSICAL COPY of the album as a back up just in case my iPod breaks, or my hard drive (where I store my music) crashes. This is how I feel digital music should be handled? Buy the CD and it is YOUR and then you can move it to a digtial format for your convienice AND have the legal copy of the album as A back up! to me, this is smart, ecinomical, and you are supporting the artist and albel that helped bring you the music you enjoy. I know this sound silly, but this is how I do it, and I have no guilt about it.

This discussion has come up on our own forum, and several others that I lurk at. I have gotten into many verbal arguments about this. I do not feel that MP3 players in general are the issue concerning the quality of music or the possible downfall of the industry. It is those that are taking music illegally via torrent sites and using MP3 players as a tool which many abuse rather than use it for what it should be. As long as they make CD's, I will still buy them, as I love to collect them. If a new hard-copy format comes out, I'll move onto that as well. But I cannot see the industry moving to an all digital format.. there is no control with digital right now. There are many legalities right now over digital distributors too, which we are now finding out are WORSE than record labels when it comes to fulfilling contractual obligations and paying the artist (or record labels)!

The digital age with music right now is like a runaway train, and there is no conductor to pull the brake before it goes off the tracks. I have said it before, but more than half of music consumers and listeners feel music is a "disposable commodity". It sickens me that so many people feel that they should not have to pay for the music they listen to, and that using torrent sites is okay, and no different than listening to the radio (which is also not free, the radio station pay for the music!). The problem is, how is an artist like myself, or even quality heavy metal record labels supposed to be reimbursed for the work put into making the music people enjoy, the time, the instruments, the studio costs, the mixing and mastering costs, the artwork and advertising?

A lot of people feel they are only sticking it to the really big fat cat record labels, but in the end, the smaller, independent record labels are being hurt too. Some are already closing their doors, while many are no longer signing artists and/or are cutting back payment and advances drastically just to stay alive in the market! If the record labels disappear, then the it will be up to the artist to do everything. while some may like that idea, I most certainly do not! I don't have time to handle every single aspect of the business, and I appreciate the help and support, (and sometimes freedom) a good record label can give an artist.

here's a possible scenario: If labels disappeared due to the fall of the music industry and an all-digital format, the level of quality control would go away, and any so-called musician with deep pockets and pro-tools could now compete easily. So, the downside to that is any idiot who has money and thinks he can play, would be in your face all the time vying for you to buy his music. For example, if this was done with CD's in mind, Can you imagine every single unsigned artist on myspace releasing a CD in stores and having to go there and weed through them all to find one that was actually GOOD!? You would be there for hours sifting through TONS and TONS of terrible, half-asses musicians and bands who have no business playing. There isn't a building big enough to hold them all, it would be like chumming for sharks in a small swimming pool of hammer heads! This is how it would be on-line in the all-digital age IF record labels go away. I fear this day?. I fear it more than the apocalypse, an asteroid hitting the earth or nuclear war. To me, that is the worst disaster imaginable. Even though many musicians and music fans hate record labels, and don't feel their money should go in their pockets, they are good for a few thing? quality control, financial, touring and publicity support.

Many torrent users say it's the same as the tape trading or CD trading days? but I digress, that is false. Long ago, you'd dub a cassette or burn a CD you purchased and send it to a few friends, a FEW, which means 3 or 5 people, and in most cases, if these friends liked it, they went out and bought it! OR, they would instead dub or burn something that you don't have that THEY BOUGHT and sent it back to you as a TRADE. This is how music was spread and bands got popular through word of mouth. Today, if you upload your library on a Torrent, you are giving 3,000 - 5,000 people a free copy, and a majority of them have NO INTENTION of buying it or trading it for something they purchased! It's a musical debauchery, a free-for-all orgy of stealing form artists, and it disgusts me to no end. Many have no intention of buy even a T-shirt! I have heard people say that bands would just have to tour more and sell more merchandise, but that is absolute crap? not every band has that luxury financially, and if labels disappear, how could they afford too? It is a very sad that many music consumers are taking music for free, much like mad locusts eating up everything in sight until it is gone. Who or what will be left in the next 10 or 20 years is anyone's guess. I hope I die before that day comes? it would break my heart and kill my soul if this happens.


Sorry, I didn?t mean to ramble on? I could go on forever on this issue as a musician AND as a music fan, but the bottom line for me is this: if and when music goes to an all-digital format, I will retire, and enjoy the music I still have that I paid for, and feel good knowing that I might have helped a starving artist or record label that supports the music I enjoy, stay alive as long as they could. As long as people are willing to blatantly misuse and abuse the digital format out there, I will refuse to buy into something that is fleeting and fruitless as an all-digital format.

[Michael@SacredMetal]

Stunning and really thought-provoking statement, Dustin....

[Prof]

Well, Dustin, I second 95% of that humongous post you left here - the lack of ethics with the torrent libraries and their users, a number of music buyers downloading out of spite against the record industry and so forth.
I don't think, however, that music will vanish into an digital format altogether. Seeing good old vinyl bounce back, seeing lots of small labels enter into the arena over the past few years and a healthy number of private pressings every month, I cannot but conclude that music released in a tangible format will be with us for a long time to come.

Still, the mass thievery of illegal downloading, widely accepted by a consumer society that discards various forms of culture as easily as it discards an empty milk carton, that's what is threatening. You can fight piracy as a symptom, but what needs to be worked on globally is the mentality that goes with the ripping. Kids are taught - hopefully - that stealing an orange is wrong, but you can steal all the music you want and virtually no one will reproach you for it.

[NegatroN]

I don't think that iPods (or MP3 in any form) will really change anything. People that really appreciate music will still buy it and will still buy the whole CD, not only a single. And people who don't appreciate it don't buy CDs anyway - and also didn't do that in the times before MP3.

Sorry, but that is complete and utter bollocks. Over the past two years or so I have had to witness, up close, how long-standing independent record stores here in The Netherlands are struggling to stay afloat. As we speak, some of the best have already closed their doors - this is in no small part due to more and more people downloading their music. That also goes for people who used to buy more than one album each week - a child can do the math and see the implications of this downward spiral.

OK. There are MP3s and downloads. And there are less people buying CDs in small shops. That is true. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the second is caused by the first. There isn't even a proof for a coherency between both phenomena.

[Michael@SacredMetal]

I know that a lot of my students don't possess a single CD but "own" thousands of mp3s. They can't understand that I habe 2500 CDs at home.
There MUST be a coherence...

[Metallah]

Younger people simply seem to have no "feelings" for owning physical media (cd's, vinyl) with some exceptions of course. It's just something they consume and then they throw it away. It's like a chewing gum, which you spit out after it has lost its taste.

I have an IPOD, which is great for having the music with me while I am away. It's quite easy to handle and a great addition - but it will never replace any cd. A friend of mine did it in a different way. He had a collection of a few hundered cd's, put them all on an IPOD (plus backupped on hard disk) and then sold them all. Now all he has in his flat is an IPOD plus a BOSE sound dock portable. This has replaced his whole hi-fi system. I can't understand this but it's his decision. He's around my age (end of 30's - beginning of the 40's) and for him it was a logical step - which I will never follow.

M.

[NegatroN]

I know that a lot of my students don't possess a single CD but "own" thousands of mp3s. They can't understand that I habe 2500 CDs at home.
There MUST be a coherence...

Since World War II the number of births in Europe has constantly decreased. As has the number of storks. But that doesn't prove that babies are delivered by storks.

There are a lot of possible reasons for people buying less CDs (IF they really buy less CDs in total). Everything has become more expensive over the years. There are by far more releases than 20 years ago. There are a lot of other new things to spend money on (DVDs, Computer Games, Handies, etc. etc.). And maybe other effects that we don't even consider in this debate. I read a lot of arguments on who's to blame for the decrease. What I didn't read were any proofs for those arguments.

I've been using MP3s and Internet for many years now. And I actually buy more CDs than before. Because it gives me an easy chance to find new music.

Anyway, it simply doesn't matter if we like MP3s. There here and they won't go away because we (or the music industry) thinks them to be the root of all evil. We have to find ways to use them wisely and react to the new situation. Everything else simply doesn't work.

[Acrylator]

I actually own an 80gb iPod, but I bought it for more of a convenience of having my CD library at my finger tips. I did NOT buy it to REPLACE my CD's, as I love having a physical, tangible copy with artwork, and liner notes. It is a very sentimental thing, much like it is for those that enjoy owning vinyl.

Personally, I fought the idea for years, but when my wife bought one and showed me how easily she could access the music she wanted and fit it into her pocket, I fell in love with it. I was tired of carrying around 24-48 CD's in with me everywhere I went, and having to conceal them in my car or in my desk. I also hated the fact that every time I slid my CD's in and out of the holders jackets, they were getting scuffed. Now, all the CD's I buy (yes, I still buy CD's!) are in mint condition, and I OWN the PHYSICAL COPY of the album as a back up just in case my iPod breaks, or my hard drive (where I store my music) crashes. This is how I feel digital music should be handled? Buy the CD and it is YOUR and then you can move it to a digtial format for your convienice AND have the legal copy of the album as A back up! to me, this is smart, ecinomical, and you are supporting the artist and albel that helped bring you the music you enjoy. I know this sound silly, but this is how I do it, and I have no guilt about it.

No, that really doesn't sound silly!
I handle it almost the same way - But I have only about 30% of my own CDs on my ipod, and I also have quite a lot albums on it that I didn't buy, but each of them that I'll still really like in a couple of months, I will buy as soon as I have enough money for it. To me it's sometimes a good chance to listen to a complete album a few times (instead of skipping through the tracks in a few minutes in a record store), so you can really get an idea of the quality of that album (or if it still moves you when you've listened to it a couple of times).

This discussion has come up on our own forum, and several others that I lurk at. I have gotten into many verbal arguments about this. I do not feel that MP3 players in general are the issue concerning the quality of music or the possible downfall of the industry. It is those that are taking music illegally via torrent sites and using MP3 players as a tool which many abuse rather than use it for what it should be. As long as they make CD's, I will still buy them, as I love to collect them. If a new hard-copy format comes out, I'll move onto that as well. But I cannot see the industry moving to an all digital format.. there is no control with digital right now. There are many legalities right now over digital distributors too, which we are now finding out are WORSE than record labels when it comes to fulfilling contractual obligations and paying the artist (or record labels)!

The digital age with music right now is like a runaway train, and there is no conductor to pull the brake before it goes off the tracks. I have said it before, but more than half of music consumers and listeners feel music is a "disposable commodity". It sickens me that so many people feel that they should not have to pay for the music they listen to, and that using torrent sites is okay, and no different than listening to the radio (which is also not free, the radio station pay for the music!). The problem is, how is an artist like myself, or even quality heavy metal record labels supposed to be reimbursed for the work put into making the music people enjoy, the time, the instruments, the studio costs, the mixing and mastering costs, the artwork and advertising? 

A lot of people feel they are only sticking it to the really big fat cat record labels, but in the end, the smaller, independent record labels are being hurt too. Some are already closing their doors, while many are no longer signing artists and/or are cutting back payment and advances drastically just to stay alive in the market!  If the record labels disappear, then the it will be up to the artist to do everything. while some may like that idea, I most certainly do not! I don't have time to handle every single aspect of the business, and I appreciate the help and support, (and sometimes freedom) a good record label can give an artist.

here's a possible scenario: If labels disappeared due to the fall of the music industry and an all-digital format, the level of quality control would go away, and any so-called musician with deep pockets and pro-tools could now compete easily. So, the downside to that is any idiot who has money and thinks he can play, would be in your face all the time vying for you to buy his music. For example, if this was done with CD's in mind, Can you imagine every single unsigned artist on myspace releasing a CD in stores and having to go there and weed through them all to find one that was actually GOOD!? You would be there for hours sifting through TONS and TONS of terrible, half-asses musicians and bands who have no business playing. There isn't a building big enough to hold them all, it would be like chumming for sharks in a small swimming pool of hammer heads! This is how it would be on-line in the all-digital age IF record labels go away. I fear this day?. I fear it more than the apocalypse, an asteroid hitting the earth or nuclear war. To me, that is the worst disaster imaginable. Even though many musicians and music fans hate record labels, and don't feel their money should go in their pockets, they are good for a few thing? quality control, financial, touring and publicity support.

Well, I thought that this already is present reality (okay, not all of it...)

Many torrent users say it's the same as the tape trading or CD trading days? but I digress, that is false. Long ago, you'd dub a cassette or burn a CD you purchased and send it to a few friends, a FEW, which means 3 or 5 people, and in most cases, if these friends liked it, they went out and bought it! OR, they would instead dub or burn something that you don't have that THEY BOUGHT and sent it back to you as a TRADE. This is how music was spread and bands got popular through word of mouth.  Today, if you upload your library on a Torrent, you are giving 3,000 - 5,000 people a free copy, and a majority of them have NO INTENTION of buying it or trading it for something they purchased! It's a musical debauchery, a free-for-all orgy of stealing form artists, and it disgusts me to no end.  Many have no intention of buy even a T-shirt! I have heard people say that bands would just have to tour more and sell more merchandise, but that is absolute crap? not every band has that luxury financially, and if labels disappear, how could they afford too?  It is a very sad that many music consumers are taking music for free, much like mad locusts  eating up everything in sight until it is gone. Who or what will be left in the next 10 or 20 years is anyone's guess. I hope I die before that day comes? it would break my heart and kill my soul if this happens.


Sorry, I didn?t mean to ramble on? I could go on forever on this issue as a musician AND as a music fan, but the bottom line for me is this: if and when music goes to an all-digital format, I will retire, and enjoy the music I still have that I paid for, and feel good knowing that I might have helped a starving artist or record label that supports the music I enjoy, stay alive as long as they could. As long as people are willing to blatantly misuse and abuse the digital format out there, I will refuse to buy into something that is fleeting and fruitless as an all-digital format.

I agree to most that you've said. Unfortunately I don't really have much money since a year or so, so I simply can't buy everything that I like (not even 10% of it) but I still buy CDs and vinyls from every cent that I don't need just to live.
So I don't think I harm the musicians or the labels, because if there were no chance for me to get albums for free, I wouldn't buy them either, because I simply don't have the money for it (at the time). I just wouldn't know that many interesting bands as I do now. But of course I know that most people don't handle it that way, they act like swarms of locusts, just as it was already said here.
I don't know where the music industry will go, but I think it also depends on how economy will develop in the future. If people have less money they first will spend their money on things they need to live (although I also need art and music to really feel alive). But of course I know that it's also a matter of the mentality of the consumer - and you can see that more and more people do things that will harm themselves in some way (not only concerning music), most people just think of today and don't (want to) see what their behaviour will cause in the future.